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28РОССИЙСКО-ТУРЕЦКИЕ ОТНОШЕНИЯ В ПЕРИОД АНДРЕЯ А.А. ГРОМЫКО И СЕЙЧАС: РЕТРОСПЕКТИВЫ И СОВРЕМЕННЫЙ ВЗГЛЯД
PhD, профессор Анкарского университета, Анкара (Турция)
Тюркер Ташансу
Я хочу сказать спасибо за то, что организовали отличную конференцию и пригласили меня в город, очень красивый город Казань, и хочу продолжить, с вашего разрешения.
First of all, I am coming from Turkey, my theme which is written on the list is «Ближний Восток». And I may just tell you that we try to understand the Middle East nowadays. I guess it's just like a metaphor, just put yourself in 1913 and try to understand Indonesian politics without understanding the Eastern European issues. So, nowadays the Middle East is something like that, because the general distress lines and lines of stresses are not in the Middle East actually, although many people think so. So, everyone was talking about China, I didn't want to talk about it actually, but I have to refer after all those references. It's obvious that, there is a shift of power. There is a shift of power in the meanings of economics, and there is a change in the economic structure and the production structure of the world. So, this an earthquake actually, there is an earthquake in the West first of all, because West is changing and another earthquake is in the strategic area, global area. There is a shift for the centres. So, first of all, I want to talk a little bit about the earthquake in the West.
So, what happened there? So, Zygmunt Bauman was calling at the crisis of modernity and people were searching for postmodern ideas. We gave up with that. And the other thing is, it's really interesting for me, when I remember Antonio Gramsci, when he was just saying that «the old is dead, but new was not born yet». We are just in between that area, I guess. For economical and technological structure of the West. Last year, when I saw Mark Zuckerberg at Senate, you know he always wears black T-shirt and jeans, he was wearing a tie and sitting like a 14-year-old boy at the Senate. And I just thought that there is something conventional what we call modern. Modern is just taking to Senate, just to tell that modern is still here. That's why we are trying to understand what's going on in the West, I don't think that Brexit is a result. I don't think that it's Trump. Those are consequences of the West, certainly for itself. It's trying to create a new West, but just think about 1789 and think 1830, 1848 and 1861, it's not so fast. But some people in the United States, I guess, they told that it was too fast. They forgot there is what we called modern still in Europe. There is what we call modern in Russia. And I am not talking about strategic needs only.
I am talking about social structures, economical structures. So, trying to make changes so fast created a reaction that is stronger than expected actually. That is why that is the first thing I think we should understand about the Western system and the shift on the global area. And want to refer to Jacques Ranciere, a French philosopher, who is still alive. Jacques Ranciere wrote a book called «Aux bords du politique». On the Shores of Politics, he was just saying that the system is polis but there is demos instead just ad of the polis. And politics is for demos, so you may just create a new metaphor of central periphery of Wallerstein, it's similar actually. But what we called periphery, what
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is demos for us? The Old World, which was very strong, very strong in traditions, very strong in believes and it was experienced.
I just want to remind one sentence of Aleksander Herzen, at mid-19 century Herzen was saying that Europe was not sleeping, Europe ws already dead. He also said that the XXth century would be the competition between the United States and Russia. He was a great guy and he saw that; the thought he was saying that the United States would lose the game because they didn't have tradition. Traditions will gain. Innovation and tradition, new and old, just remember what Trump was saying in his inauguration ceremony, talking about automobile factories and at the same time there was World Economic Forum in Davos and people were talking about robotics, gender of robotics. Two different worlds, we are just in between those two different worlds and whatever is happening in the Middle East nowadays, I guess we should just see in that perspective and we should just question ourselves are very well-known truths.
For example, what do we say about Israel and Zionism? Is Zionism the crystallized version of nationalism and modernity? Will it still be? What about Arab independence in Palestine, it is another issue. Or what about, I remember when people asked Pushkin for example, why are you a westernist and not liberal? He answered that the sole European thing was the government in Russia. So, a state carrying the civilization as modernity or not, all those questions are actually shaping the Middle East. Last words of mine, the King Fahd of Saudi Arabia was saying that, there are two and the half states in the Middle East. I remember that, one state was Turkey and the other one and the half, one of them is Israel and one of them is Iran. And that balance will reshape the Middle East.
And now we have welcomed I guess all Middle Eastern forces, there is another game changer now in the Middle East, which is Russia. So, I think the vacuum which Trump has created as being fulfilled by Russia and so in the Middle East, there is another actor which knows the Middle East so well. And I think that's why we should think about the process in the Middle East in that framework. Thank you so much.
ДИСКУССИЯ
Вопрос модератора (А.А.А.А. Громыко):
These days our attention is very deeply distracted or attracted by new military campaign of Turkey. What are the final goals of this campaign and how do you think Russia and Iran are affected in or not what Turkey has decided to pursue these days?
Ответ докладчика (Т.Ташансу):
Thank you for your question, because actually yesterday when I was leaving Ankara, I've learned about this operation. The problem is that there is a terrorist organization accepted by the UN and the United States, and it was supported by the American army, and even today President Trump was saying that previous President Obama has made an agreement with PKK, which is the terrorist organization for the United States. So, it's some big earthquake, it should be for the United States' domestic politics. And Turkey had legitimate concerns about the border security, and I guess Russia and Turkey do understand each other in that meaning. Because at the West part of Euphrates is the Russian area. Russia is watching the process and I don't think that Russia will be against that. The first expression is not supporting, but not act against, let me say from Russia. I guess, there was one big process, the Astana process, which was made by Russia, Turkey
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and Iran. I think this process will be the platform to create peace in Syria, and I think it can be a good example when to people are searching for new mechanisms or new international law in the world. So, the powers of regions have primary rights than other big powers. When we are talking about the Karabakh problem, it's about Armenia and Azerbaijan, but Russia and Turkey should be the ones who are solving that. Just like that the same for Syria. Thank you.
Вопрос из аудитории:
Сейчас в политике стало достаточно модным делать заявления при помощи Твиттера, Д. Трамп сейчас в своем твите, сказал, что если Турция перейдет определенные границы, то ей не поздоровится. Этот вопрос одновременно и к нашему американскому коллеге, как вы понимаете эти границы, которые Турция не должна переходить?
Ответ докладчика (Т. Ташансу):
First of all, as a Turkish citizen, I am not talking as a Turkish professor, it is not a good suggestion really. So no one has a right like that. No one has the right saying to the Russians for example, we know what the humanity is, but you, Russians, don't know that. We don't like threat; we don't like twitter. We know what the humanity is. So, the borders about the humanity he said, I think, it was about the domestic politics, because his right hands in the Senate, Lindsey Graham is very active about supporting the PKK, a terrorist organization, he is just talking about the domestic politics. But at the other side, he has a common understanding of the world. And this is not his mind I guess, because he is a practitioner, the real mind is Kissinger, who is describing a new world in his mind, and in that mind Russia has a meaning, Turkey has a meaning, Israel has a meaning, India has a meaning, so that is why I don't think that Mr. Trump as a president he has ideologies, but there is one mind behind, and according to that mind states are more civilized things, than any civil society.
